B1: ME/CFS is a severe neuroimmunological multisystem disorder. Those of us affected experience pain and extreme exhaustion. At the slightest exertion, whether cognitive or physical, we crash and our condition deteriorates. #00:00:19-8#

B2: How does the whole absorption process work? If someone is depleted and nothing is functioning properly at a cellular level, I naturally want to know whether they can absorb nutrients effectively or whether there are inflammatory processes, such as leaky gut, present. When I connected Melina to the microcurrent once, she immediately remarked: ‘That’s doing me a world of good.’ That was a real highlight. #00:00:35-7#

B1: After the first session, I immediately noticed that the pain and exhaustion were improving, even though I was already exhausted from the effort of getting there. But the therapy made things better. #00:01:08-2#

B2: That’s very touching – and the fact that your sleep has improved too. Being able to go out again with your dog, rather than just lying at home and not taking part in life at all. It’s such a great gift and very touching that we’re rebuilding your cells properly, that you’re also very disciplined, and that you’re enjoying it. #00:01:35-4#

B1: So many things have improved. I’ve been unable to attend school since January last year. Before the therapy, when I was being home-schooled, I’d forget what I’d just read as soon as I’d finished the first sentence. I couldn’t concentrate at all. It was impossible to concentrate, even for just half an hour. I simply couldn’t manage any kind of mental effort. With the device, I’ve managed to do two hours of home schooling three times a week. I’m just starting to go back to school more often again, bit by bit. #00:02:05-5#

B2: First of all, I’m even more confident about this. I’d start by connecting them all to the microcurrent device. Many people are exhausted. If you look at society, how many people are exhausted? #00:02:14-2#

I1: Welcome to a new podcast from LuXXaMed GmbH. My name is Patrick Walitschek. This time, I’ve brought you an interview – for which, by the way, there’s also a video. It’s a YouTube video, and what you’re hearing here is, so to speak, just the audio track. I’ll include a link to the YouTube video in the show notes. Anyone who’d like to watch the video is very welcome to do so. In this interview, I spoke to a naturopath and a very young patient with ME/CFS. We discussed the whole topic: how the condition manifests itself in the patient, what treatments have been tried, and what message might be conveyed to doctors and therapists who work with similar patients. We’d like to offer those affected a point of contact here. With that in mind, I won’t say any more. Please watch the video or listen to the interview now. A very warm welcome to Melina and Manuela on our podcast today, in a very special setting which most of you won’t be able to see in the video. We’ve still got an audience sitting at the back, as we’re at Gut Wissmannshof for our two-day Core Seminar 2024. I’m particularly delighted that you’re here today and are willing to tell us a bit about yourself. Let’s start with that. #00:03:48-2#

B1: I’m Melina, I’m 14 years old and I live with ME/CFS. I don’t really know where to start. #00:03:57-5#

B2: Tell us what ME/CFS is and what it means. #00:04:01-4#

B1: I had an infection four years ago and haven’t really recovered since. I also had an enlarged liver. But they never found out exactly what it was. The infection lasted a really long time. It went on for months, and it took a long time for me to recover from it. Since then, I haven’t really recovered. That means I keep getting ill and, overall, I’ve become increasingly unwell. #00:04:32-8#

I1: How did the two of you get together? I don’t think that little golf ball interruption did us any real harm. The listeners probably won’t even have noticed that we just had a brief interruption. We’ll try to edit that out as best we can. But we were just getting to the bit where you wanted to introduce yourself – what you do, where you’re from and where people can find you. #00:05:00-5#

B2: My name is Manu Lemke. I’ve been a naturopath with my own practice in Berlin for 14 years. I take a holistic approach, which means I don’t just work from a single perspective. My area of specialism is the gut. The gut is our organ of absorption, our processor and our source of energy. Melina came to see me back then because of gut problems. But we managed to get that under control quite well. #00:05:34-1#

I1: What was your approach? How should I understand your condition, particularly in relation to your specific situation? What were the first steps you took to get an initial picture of the situation? #00:05:52-2#

B2: First of all, I received a mountain of diagnostic reports from her parents detailing tests that had already been carried out. It was all very conventional medicine. That was my first encounter with naturopathy. I was really pleased that you’d decided to take a different approach to see what other complementary options were available. For me, the first priority was to understand how her entire system functions. If someone is depleted and at a cellular level nothing is working properly, I naturally want to know whether she can absorb nutrients effectively or whether there are inflammatory processes, such as leaky gut syndrome. How is her liver functioning? Are there any food intolerances or similar issues? We did identify some issues along those lines, but they turned out to be fine. We treated this effectively with micronutrients and similar therapies. Then there was a relapse involving a different issue that suddenly arose. #00:06:13-2#

I1: How did you take that on board, given that you’ve just said you moved from conventional medicine to naturopathy? What was that like for you; how did you perceive it? #00:07:09-2#

B1: After two years of illness, we went to see Manu, mainly because the doctors couldn’t really help us and didn’t really know what was wrong with me. She was able to help me, and she was the first person who immediately believed and understood us. #00:07:28-7#

I1: Did she understand what your actual problems were, including how you perceived them? Did you feel better there? What was it like for you when they came to you after that long odyssey of conventional medical treatments? How do you generally deal with this in your practice? #00:07:51-3#

B2: When someone comes from conventional medicine? #00:07:54-4#

I1: When someone comes to you who perhaps wasn’t taken entirely seriously by conventional medicine regarding their condition. #00:08:01-7#

B2: It’s very important to me to listen, to observe, to show trust, and above all to give and build hope. I’ve decided to do my very best for people. I stand up for people. With Melina, it’s particularly important to me because young people are very close to my heart. When I see such a beautiful, delicate, intelligent young person in such a state, it moves me deeply. With Melina, everything was initially fine with her bowel, and six months later she came back completely exhausted. Suddenly, she developed a persistent fever, nausea and dizziness. All of a sudden, she was showing completely different symptoms, which left us with a big question mark. After a huge ordeal, it turned out that Melina had tuberculosis. She was suffering from extreme exhaustion. This chronic exhaustion is ME/CFS, which I used to call fatigue. The doctors diagnosed her with ME/CFS; you’re welcome to add anything else on that. #00:09:13-6#

B1: ME/CFS is a severe neuroimmunological multisystem disorder. Those of us affected experience pain and extreme exhaustion. Even the slightest exertion, whether cognitive or physical, causes us to crash and our condition to deteriorate. It can sometimes take us weeks, months or even years to recover from this deterioration. #00:09:40-2#

I1: What was your therapeutic approach, particularly with regard to fatigue? #00:09:49-0#

B2: Melina was in hospital for a very long time and was on antibiotics for what felt like half a year. It was always important to me that her gut was still being looked after, and that she didn’t completely break down in terms of her gut health. But medication was involved. I saw my only hope in fusion therapy, oxygen therapy and microcurrent therapy. When I connected Melina to the microcurrent device one day, she immediately remarked: ‘That really does me good.’ That was a massive highlight. #00:10:27-1#

I1: Can you describe what that was like? #00:10:31-4#

B1: After the first session, I immediately noticed that the pain and exhaustion were easing, even though I was already exhausted from the effort of getting there. But the therapy made things better. #00:10:46-3#

I1: So that the listeners and I can picture it, was that straight after the first session? #00:10:49-1#

B1: It got better straight after the first session, but unfortunately the effect had worn off after a few days. So we started doing it more regularly – once a week. Even so, the effect always wore off after a few days, which is why I was given a device so I could use it at home three times a day. #00:11:18-1#

I1: Do you notice that you have more energy and that the pain is easing? #00:11:21-7#

B1: Things have improved a great deal. I’ve been unable to attend school since January last year. Before the therapy, when I was being home-schooled, I’d immediately forget what I’d read after reading the first sentence. I couldn’t concentrate at all. It was impossible for me to concentrate, even for just half an hour. I simply couldn’t manage any kind of mental effort. With the device, I’ve managed to do two hours of home schooling three times a week. I’m just starting to go back to school more often again, bit by bit. #00:11:50-0#

I1: That’s lovely, very good. #00:11:53-6#

B2: That’s very touching, and it’s also great that your sleep has improved. And that you’re going out again with your dog, rather than just lying at home and not taking part in life at all. It’s such a great gift and very touching that we’re rebuilding your cells properly, that you’re also very disciplined and motivated, and that you’re enjoying it. #00:12:17-8#

I1: I remember you once posted a picture on social media relating to the lab tests you’d had done. The term microcurrent BCR therapy in particular is often mentioned in connection with mitochondria and ATP production. I recall that you discovered something important on this subject. Could you explain what happened in this regard? #00:12:44-2#

B2: Let me explain once more for the listeners’ benefit that mitochondria are the powerhouses of our cells. They produce energy, and we can measure this energy – ATP. In Melina’s case, there was no ATP in the cells, or rather, levels were as low as those seen in a cancer patient. It was as low as 1.6 in some cases. How did that work with the ATP? Melina was only allowed to go back to school, go out, visit a friend or do similar things once her ATP level had risen again. Was there something along those lines? #00:13:23-7#

B1: We had to get that ATP level back up as quickly as possible so that her exhaustion could improve too. She had actually improved a little. #00:13:33-2#

B2: When we measured the level again, it was much higher. It needs to be above 2.5, and it was 3.01. I remember it being a huge joy. I can still recall it. #00:13:48-6#

I1: That’s brilliant. How long was the interval between the first measurement and the result of 3.01? #00:13:54-2#

B2: It wasn’t that long at all. I think it was a couple of weeks. #00:13:59-8#

B1: Yes, I think it was a couple of weeks. #00:14:00-8#

B2: I’m not prepared to answer that exactly, but it was a couple of weeks – not very long. #00:14:02-9#

I1: Very good, that’s enough. Did you notice at the same time that your performance had improved? #00:14:10-9#

B1: Exactly, that’s how it was. #00:14:12-4#

I1: That’s excellent. From a therapeutic perspective, what would you recommend, for example, to colleagues who are encountering this clinical picture in patients for the first time? What did you learn from this experience? #00:14:28-8#

B2: First of all, I feel even more confident about it now. I’d start by connecting them all to the microcurrent device. Many are exhausted. If you look at society, how many people are exhausted? Many have cognitive difficulties, can barely concentrate, and so on. I think it’s a very sensible approach to treat the autonomic nervous system first, regardless of the specific area involved. That’s what I’ve learnt now – to have the confidence to go ahead and do it. #00:15:05-2#

I1: You just mentioned that you’ve also used combinations of oxygen and infusions. Would you like to say a few words about that, and what was special about it? #00:15:14-5#

B2: I think that, since Melina is lying down anyway, we might as well carry out a few other treatments. Whether that’s massaging her feet, stimulating her a bit more, or administering the infusions. Above all, her appetite has waned, or she simply can’t eat as much. Melina is really slim. And we can administer micronutrients directly into a vein – primarily vitamin C, of course. I’ve also worked with lysine, amino acids and B vitamins, particularly to ensure her nerves are well nourished. The importance of oxygen goes without saying. We need oxygen in the cells. What could be better than the mitochondria being built up simultaneously by the flow of micronutrients and oxygen? #00:16:03-2#

I1: That’s brilliant. Melina, what advice would you give to others affected by this condition? What would you recommend to those who might initially feel as though they’re in a vacuum, whether when seeing a doctor or a therapist in general? #00:16:21-8#

B1: It’s difficult to give advice to people with this condition, as they’re often left to their own devices by doctors and therapists. It would be good if the condition were better understood. For example, I’m being treated at the Charité, and they only accept a few people with this condition there – and only those with the most severe cases. The others then have to go to expensive private doctors. I’d like to see more therapists and doctors familiarising themselves with this condition and trying to help. #00:16:54-2#

I1: I think that’s a really important point. I believe you’ve also prepared something, Melina, that you’d like to share with our listeners and viewers. Would you like to present it? #00:17:08-2#

B2: I’d like to add something here, because I find this really fascinating. Melina, you’ve been using microcurrent quite intensively since August, haven’t you? #00:17:18-7#

B1: I’ve been using it since October. #00:17:21-3#

B2: She’s been using it three times a day since October. It’s now early March, and you’ve got a large community of young girls and boys who have similar conditions and are already using microcurrent. They’ve heard about Melina’s case, and they’re also using microcurrent and seeing improvements – some of which are very emotional. There are some among them who are in a much worse state than Melina. They’re in wheelchairs, unable to move their heads or anything at all. These are moments that make me feel very grateful that things have turned out this way. Please feel free to share this with others affected by the condition. #00:18:14-9#

B1: Should I say something to the other people affected? #00:18:19-1#

I1: Exactly, please do share it with the other people affected. #00:18:19-1#

B1: I’m still lucky with the severity of my condition, as many sufferers are truly bedridden and in need of care. They lie in a dark room all day and receive no help. A friend of mine, who has ME/CFS herself, has written a piece, and I’d like to read it out. #00:18:40-0#

I1: Please do read it out. #00:18:42-7#

B1: ‘Please leave my body,’ I scream with my last ounce of strength. ‘Let me be happy again,’ but you won’t go. How could you? You’re now a part of me – the part that has taken so much from me, snatched away so many dreams and brought me tears. You crept into my life without warning. Nobody knew how to deal with you, least of all a child who was bursting with joie de vivre. I soared through the air, lighter and freer than ever before. But suddenly you poisoned my body, weighed my bones down with lead, and I fell very deep. You have irrevocably taken root in my once-healthy body and taken it away from me. No one can tell me whether I’ll ever get it back. I miss so much of what you’ve taken from me, but what hurts the most is that perhaps I wouldn’t have had to lose any of it at all if people had listened to me, believed me, taken me seriously. But they didn’t. I’m just a girl going through puberty, and it’s normal. I’m sure it’s just psychological. But don’t you understand? I want to do so much, experience so much. I’m trapped in a body that’s trying to die, with a mind that’s trying to survive. I used to love life so much and lived it to the full; I loved feeling things so much, but feeling has become too much. Feeling hurts; feeling can keep destroying me until there’s nothing left of me. “Everything’s fine, you’re perfectly all right – certainly nothing to worry about. You can do whatever you want – sport, school. The main thing is that you don’t just sit in front of the telly like other children.” So that’s what I do, because I want to. For two years, I’ve been ignoring my body. I try, at least, but when doubts creep in, I can quickly suppress them, because the doctor said sport can’t be bad as long as I enjoy it. It’s great fun for me. But I can’t shake the feeling that something isn’t right, because my friends don’t faint after almost every training session. Their throats don’t burn like fire after a short run. Their knees don’t start to shake if they stand for too long. The day after exercising, they wake up as normal. They don’t catch a new virus or come down with the flu once a week, coincidentally always the very day after exertion. But there’s nothing wrong with me, after all; they haven’t found anything. Everything’s fine. Now I know that not everything was fine, and why? I thought everything had to be fine by now. It can’t be that even the medical staff, the politicians, this healthcare system are letting me down, can it? But can’t you see me? I’m lying right in front of you. No, you can’t see me at all. The moment you decided for yourselves who I am, without ever really listening – which makes me very bitter. I’m trying to explain it: I’ve become invisible. You can look right through me, through all my suffering, the pain, the despair. That’s probably easier and less complicated. When there’s so much suffering, people prefer to look away, especially when they aren’t responsible anyway. You might say I’m just seeking attention, that I’m exaggerating. If I just want to and try hard enough, I’ll get better. But by claiming that my illness is psychosomatic, you simultaneously absolve yourselves of any responsibility to continue treating me properly, or to find another, perhaps somewhat unknown, cause or treatment. But it also means admitting that you’re actually at a loss. The uncertainty, the fact that you don’t fully understand it, is frightening – and it’s just as frightening for me. I thought that in a democracy, people stick together, protect the vulnerable and show solidarity. That’s what I learnt at school, anyway. I thought that in medicine, everyone worked together until they’d found the right way to help the patient, and didn’t give up when things got more complicated. Please don’t give up on us just because it’s more difficult – after all, we don’t give up either. Unfortunately, I’m not the perfect patient. Because I ask questions; I want to know what’s going on inside my body. I’m a child, but I don’t just accept everything. I want to be spoken to, not spoken over. I believe that, after everything I go through with it every day, I know my body. I’m not afraid of reality. I don’t hide from my real life. I’m afraid of a reality in which I have to defend myself forever, in which I have to prove forever that there really is something wrong with me. A reality in which I can never do anything right, yet the entire burden of responsibility always rests on my shoulders. That’s how I’ve felt ever since I was 13. A reality that allows me and so many others to remain invisible forever. I’d love so much to be lighter; I wouldn’t wish for anything more, because then I’d probably already be free by now. My mind would be filled with the sort of thoughts that most other young people my age are allowed to have – which party they’re going to tomorrow, which cities they’ll travel to after their A-levels, which degree course they’ll enrol on. Instead, I have to worry about whether I’ll even be able to get out of bed on my own tomorrow, because I saw my friends today. Whether I’ll end up taking too many tablets again, the side-effects of which will cause new problems, because my pain won’t let me sleep. Or whether I’ll faint too often, whether I’ll have a future independent of my parents, who’ve had to turn their lives around 180 degrees for my sake. Whether I’ll ever run across the meadow again like I used to, with music in my ears, as fast as my legs will carry me. Whether the very first thing I feel in the morning will ever again be anything other than pain, flu-like symptoms and exhaustion that paralyses me right down to my bones. Yet even now, I’m not giving up hope. At least I’m trying, because I know how weak my body is right now; my spirit, my feelings and my personality will remain stronger – not the other way round, as you might think. But for many, things are getting tougher every day. Our numbers won’t dwindle, however much most of us are forced into silence by this illness. One day, you’ll have to look us in the eye. I know you’ll wish you’d believed us. #00:23:45-4#

I1: I don’t think there’s much more to add. Thank you very much for sharing this, and for taking the trouble to speak out via this medium, this podcast, and for being here today and this weekend. It’s been wonderful; thank you very much, I must say. My questions have been answered. If you’d like to say anything else, please feel free to bring up any further topics. #00:24:26-3#

B2: Yes, I’m naturally interested in how you’re doing now, and what’s happened in your life over the past two years. #00:24:39-8#

B1: After two years of illness, I was diagnosed with tuberculosis, but I didn’t have pulmonary tuberculosis. No organ involvement was ever found, even though all the tests were positive. This led to the suspicion of gastrointestinal tuberculosis. I was given the antibiotics anyway, and at first I did feel better whilst taking them. However, things took a turn for the worse again because I kept experiencing these relapses. Thanks to the microcurrent device, this no longer happens at all. I’ve had it since October, and since then I’ve only crashed once, following a stay in hospital. #00:25:21-2#

B2: Could you briefly explain what crashing means? #00:25:23-0#

B1: Crashing is the deterioration in condition associated with ME/CFS. It happens when we overexert ourselves slightly – even if it’s just mentally – or when some people have to sit down after speaking for just two seconds. Some sufferers can’t speak at all because it’s too exhausting for them. They enter a state where they can no longer tolerate any stimuli. Some can no longer bear being touched, and this state can last for weeks, months or even years. Then new symptoms may develop or existing symptoms may worsen. #00:25:56-0#

B2: And you experienced that once after your stay in hospital. That’s where I interrupted you. #00:26:00-9#

B1: I was diagnosed with silent epilepsy about three weeks ago. According to the EEG, I was having five silent epileptic seizures an hour, and I’m now taking medication for it, which unfortunately makes me very tired. #00:26:19-7#

I1: That’s on top of everything else. Do you notice this silent epilepsy yourself, or does the term silent already say it all? #00:26:27-0#

B1: I’m also on medication; I have orthostatic intolerance, or POTS, which is a condition I have alongside my epilepsy. That means that when I stand up, laugh or cough, my pulse shoots up to 200. This happens every time I stand up or raise my arms above my head. It’s incredibly exhausting for me, and I take bisoprolol for it, but it doesn’t really work. I’m also taking LDN – that’s low-dose naltrexone, which is supposed to help with inflammation in ME/CFS – and Levyteraxan for the epilepsy. #00:27:05-6#

B2: As a result, we’re currently seeing a relapse in the muscles and joints. There’s pain in the musculoskeletal system. We’re moving forward, but everything else has, of course, improved significantly. Both sides can only take a complementary approach here. #00:27:26-7#

I1: Yes, very good, thank you very much – especially to you, Melina, and thank you very much to you too, Manuela, for your efforts in ensuring we could discuss this topic here and try to spread the word to others affected. We’d like to try and offer them a lifeline. I think that’s the first step. Thank you very much indeed. I hope you all have a lovely rest of the day here today. We’ll now be continuing with the training workshops. I wish you all the best for the future and hope you make a full recovery. I’m sure we’ll definitely stay in touch – thank you very much once again. #00:28:11-4#

B2: Thank you very much for the invitation. #00:28:12-7#

B1: Thank you very much. #00:28:13-6#

B2: Does anyone else have a question? #00:28:25-2#

I1: Yes, does anyone else have a question? We’d be happy to include that. I’ll come over to you. #00:28:29-6#

B2: Does anyone else have a question for Melina? #00:28:32-5#

I1: We can, of course, organise the questions. #00:28:39-2#

I2: My question concerns the fact that epilepsy is a contraindication for microcurrent therapy. What has been your experience, or how do you deal with this? #00:28:54-8#

B2: We just carry on. #00:28:56-7#

B1: The doctors at the Charité know that I’m doing electrotherapy, and they haven’t said anything about it. I even had the device with me in hospital; they were there and didn’t object. #00:29:07-8#

I2: Didn’t they take any measurements to see what effect the device was having? #00:29:10-7#

B1: No, they said that they’d observed that the microcurrent had an effect on the EEG, the brain waves. I had to write down the times when I’d used the microcurrent, but they didn’t say anything more about it. We wrote to my neurologist because I had a muscle twitch once in the morning at breakfast, where my arm jerked violently. We then wrote to him to ask whether this could be a side effect of the medication. Three days later, he arranged for an EEG to be carried out at the Charité, during which I actually had seizures straight away. I was then diagnosed with silent epilepsy and myoclonic epilepsy, although we don’t notice either of them. My doctor said that with silent epilepsy, you’d still notice that you stop talking mid-sentence or interrupt whatever you’re doing, which has never been the case for me. #00:30:10-1#

I3: Can I ask you something too? You say you use microcurrent therapy three times a day. Do you always use the same programme, or do you switch it up? #00:30:23-6#

B1: No, I use lots of different programmes. Over the last few days, I’ve also been doing vibration and trauma programmes. When I was six, I had an operation behind my ear, which ran right along where the vagus nerve is. Because of that, we suspected that it might have been damaged. But nobody can confirm that. That’s why we decided to give this a go. However, I use a lot of stimulation – physical, nervous system, peripheral, healing mode – lots of different programmes. #00:30:50-1#

I1: There are no further questions. Today we have this wonderful setting, with our specialist audience here with us. Wonderful – many thanks for that too. #00:31:00-5#

B2: Wonderful, thank you very much. #00:31:03-8#

I1: Wonderful, thank you very much! That was the interview with alternative practitioner Manuela Lemke and Melina, the ME/CFS patient. I hope you enjoyed the interview and that it perhaps gave you a little perspective or perhaps even a different way of looking at things. We’d of course be delighted to receive any feedback or comments. Please do feel free to write to us. You’ll find our contact details here in the show notes, just as you do for all our other podcast episodes. There will certainly be more interviews of this kind. This one was taken from a Core Seminar that we ran as a two-day seminar at the Gut Wissmannshof golf resort near Kassel. There will be another Core Seminar this year, in autumn 2024, focusing on different topics. We’re planning another interview like this for that event as well. Of course, there’ll be more podcast episodes on other topics coming soon, and perhaps some other interviews too. On that note, thank you very much for tuning in, and thank you for listening. I’ll sign off now and say, see you soon. #00:32:07-4#